DAVE SMALLEY INTERVIEW FROM 2015
Photo: Ken Salerno
As I’m sure many of you know, Dave Smalley (DYS, Dag Nasty, All, Down By Law, etc) is going through recovery from cancer. A special edition of the DYS Brotherhood 12” has been released by Bridge Nine to help with the costs of recovery and his family has set up a Gofundme page. Links to both of these pages are at the end of this post.
In the hopes of getting you to give up some dough for Dave, here’s an interview I conducted with him for my Straight Edge book back in 2015. Enjoy — TR
Tony Rettman: Maybe we should start with an explanation of what American youth culture was like in the 70’s.
Dave Smalley: People who are younger and just reading about it have to understand the 70’s were a heavily drug-influenced culture. It started in the late ‘60s with the Beatles White Album and all the San Francisco hippie stuff, but then it permeated from a minority mindset into mainstream culture.
I never liked drugs. Maybe it was luck of the draw. I never did that stuff. I never found any appeal. My dad worked for the government, so in 7th and 8th grade I lived in Paris, France. Everyone knows Europeans are much more relaxed about drinking than Americans, but there wasn’t a lot of pot smoking going on. So, when I got back in 9th grade, there were all these kids that I knew from 6th grade who were now smoking pot all the time. For me, it was shocking and depressing. People who were bright lights were becoming stoners and their lights were going dim. It made me wary of the whole thing, so I never got involved with that.
Since you grew up in the D.C. area were you a part of the nascent hardcore scene there?
I started going to shows and these bands in D.C like The Teen Idles were hitting chords with me both literally and figuratively. Then, all of a sudden, I noticed a lot of the kids at these shows weren’t drinking or doing drugs. That was probably one of the reasons I was latching onto it, even if it was subconsciously.
Early on in D.C. when I started going to shows, I began seeing the X’s on people’s hands. It started at the 9:30 Club when they would put huge X’s on the back of kid’s hands so they couldn’t go to the bar and order a drink. We then started putting them on our hands voluntarily.
I picked up on it by being at the early shows in D.C. but I was this suburban kid who was an outsider to the whole thing. I feel lucky because I saw all the early shows with Minor Threat and Government Issue. I was aware of this culture and group and their philosophy called Straight Edge and by the time I moved to Boston, I was firmly and proudly Straight Edge.
Now, I want to make this 100% clear: I did not judge people.
There were some points in my past where I was judgmental and it was a mistake. No one holds a candle on truth and all people are different. The music made on drugs and alcohol was amazing. Look at a guy like Keith Moon who we’re led to believe was a walking pharmacy. But the question is would Keith Moon or Jimi Hendrix be who they are without drugs or alcohol? That’s an interesting philosophical question.
But I loved classic rock and still do. I love Led Zeppelin, Skynard and Boston, and the Steve Miller Band. But, for my immediate musical circles, it dawned on me that I wasn’t alone.
When you moved to Boston to go to college, did you immediately find out about SS Decontrol?
SS Decontrol stood for Society System Decontrol and they were already a band by the time I moved to Boston. They should be recognized as the rock of the Boston Hardcore scene. They were the first band that was really getting out there and doing it, especially in terms of being a straight-edge band. Very quickly around them sprung D.Y.S. Negative FX and some other bands that weren’t Straight Edge like Jerry’s Kids, Gang Green, or The F.U’s. They were part of the Boston Crew, but not the Boston Straight Edge Crew. They weren’t Straight Edge and didn’t pretend to be.
What would you say was the difference between the Boston straight-edge people and the ones from D.C?
D.C. kids were a little more cerebral maybe, but that’s just the nature of the city and the environment that it is with being the hub of government. But Boston is a tough, badass town. We spray-painted our names everywhere and got in fights and got chased by jocks and ran from cops. That all happened on a regular basis and that’s not to glorify it.
Another thing I want to say: Straight Edge by itself is nothing; it’s what you do with it that matters. Let’s use Ernest Hemingway as an example. He was notorious for being a big drinker and womanizer, but he wrote some of the most beautiful things in the English language. He did something with his life that was irrespective of drinking or not drinking. But if someone was Straight Edge and was just a nasty person who hurt people and never achieved anything with their life, is that person better than Hemmingway? Of course not.
The whole term came from the idea that it gave you an edge in order to achieve something. Straight Edge is not the goal. Straight Edge is a tool for some people to get to a goal. It’s to use that sharpness from not being dulled to achieve something great.
For me, it was great to have that culture and that support network. I didn’t have any distractions from drugs and alcohol. I was free to achieve or not achieve. So, that’s what Straight Edge means to me. I did promote and sing about it because I wanted other people to know that the option was there for the kids who were doing stupid things and ruining their potential to change. There was this certain evangelical ferocity to it.
What do you think made Boston stand out from the other hardcore punk scenes starting up in the early 80s?
Today, the internet has blurred all the lines between distinctness in our country. It’s hard to find an identity when every town has a Starbucks, a Target, a Walmart, and a Staples. But back then, every city in the punk scene in America was pretty damned unique. Boston was very different from D.C. which was very different from Chicago which was very different from Detroit which was very different from L.A. which was very different from San Francisco. Each of those scenes was so distinct musically, stylistically, and aesthetically.
Why did Boston earn a reputation so early on?
Why was Boston the most agro and militant about Straight Edge? I don’t know. Maybe because Boston is a tough freakin’ town. We had tough guys in our crew. The other thing is we had some great music coming from our scene that was centered on Straight Edge. Look no further than SSD and that first album The Kids Will Have Their Say. Holy cow! SSD’s second album was called Get It Away. How much stronger could the message be? When D.Y.S called our first record Brotherhood, it was about Hardcore kids sticking together. Just to be fair and totally honest, we walked the walk and talked the talk.
The beautiful thing about that era is that there was a real joyful innocence. We were proud of being Straight Edge and to make that a part of our mark, but there was no intent behind it. We were just showing who we were. We threw down the flag. You could pick it up if you want. You could step on it if you want, but we’ll see where that gets you. It was all honest and that was the greatest thing about that era. There was no pretense from anyone because we were all figuring it out as we went. That’s probably why each city was so distinct.
L.A. had a scene with The Circle Jerks, The Adolescents, or Wasted Youth. That mirrored their culture and who they were. With Boston, we had SSD and D.Y.S. and it was a reflection of who we were and it was very modest and pure. Straight Edge was the flag we were waving.
Boston pits were known to be really hard and aggressive. I can’t count the number of elbows I caught in my eye and seeing stars. Again, I’m not trying to glorify this. It’s just to describe how honest it was.
I remember The English Beat coming to The Channel and we formed a pit at the show. In the next issue of The Boston Phoenix, there was a review about how the Boston Hardcore kids ruined the show. It was written by an older person who didn’t like it. There certainly was an element that was frowning upon what we were doing, but we didn’t care.
How did DYS form?
I was walking around the dorm with a sleeveless white t-shirt on that I had written Teen Idles on with a thick black magic marker. This kid came up to me and asked if I was in The Teen Idles and I said no, but we got to talking and realized we both wanted to be in a band. I went down to Newbury Comics back when it was one store that sold imported LPs and some buttons and there was a cork bulletin board in there. I put up this little piece of paper that said “Punk singer and drummer with full equipment looking to form Hardcore Punk band”. I had nothing and he didn’t have a drum kit. We basically lied. But Jonathan called me up and said he was a bass player and he had an awesome guitar player who loved punk, but it turned out that guy was a stoner who just wanted to play Van Halen riffs all day. But Jonathan and I quickly gelled. We were there at all the early SSD shows.
I always got the feeling DYS was the little brother band to SSD.
SSD and DYS were definitely brother bands.
Was there a certain intention behind DYS’ forming?
I wanted to have a Hardcore punk band that was centered around trying to make life better, trying to make the world a little better, and doing all that for Straight Edge.
Punk Rock started with nihilism and anarchy and shouting “This Place Sucks!” But where we differed from the nihilists and anarchists was they just wanted to tear everything down and our philosophy was “Yeah, this place sucks, but what can I do as a kid to make this better?”
What were some of the early Boston hardcore shows like?
The first Boston Hardcore shows happened at Gallery East and The Media Workshop, which was this place up on the ten millionth floor of this building that should have been condemned.
Boston shows were marked with an urgent chaos. I always say that Boston was like a musical fist. There was no stroking of the chin or stenciled smiles. It was the musical difference between making love and sex. We weren’t smart enough to know whether we were good or bad. I mean, we were pretty good, but we weren’t trying to outplay each other. It was straight from the heart and gut.
Was there a strained relationship between the D.C. and Boston scenes?
There was a respectful relationship between D.C. and Boston. We were the two cities that were marked by this thing called Straight Edge. We were either hated or loved for it. That perception is put on both of those cities.
What was the first band outside of D.C. or Boston you heard about that was also interested in straight edge?
7 Seconds was the first band we heard about outside of Boston and D.C . that was into this. I’ve often used the analogy that Straight Edge was my gang. Not in the sense of drugs and money laundering, but in the sense of brotherhood. That gang spiraled so that if you found out a band was Straight Edge or had a Straight Edge guy in the band, you gave extra support since there were so few of us then. You had Sid Vicious dying of a heroin overdose and that sent a tone throughout the world on what they thought punk was about. Drinking was such an established part of Rock ‘N’ Roll and society in general. So, we were a minority and outcasts for sure.
What is your take on the metal era of DYS?
I think there has always been a very close relationship between Hardcore and Hard Rock. They’re both hard-edged forms of music with lyrics that raise eyebrows among most people. A band like Venom was big with us.
What’s the difference between the first two Metallica records in attitude compared to SSD or DYS? It’s all the same fucking attitude, which was: Fuck your world. We’re taking over.
We were listening to Judas Priest, Venom, and Metallica while getting better at our instruments. Jonathan and I and a lot of the other Boston Crew guys were into working out. We were hardcore into weightlifting and we’d listen to all that stuff while lifting.
In the same way people were getting better at their instruments, I said to myself “Wait a minute, I know how to sing”. I sang in church choir and musicals in high school, so I knew I could do a little bit more. We all wanted to stretch as musicians. It was an organic growth.
We were hated, but it was who we were. The interesting thing is at the same time bands like C.O.C and D.R.I. were loved and bringing Metal into Hardcore as well but the punk purists and San Francisco Anarchist Crowd hated it. I remember the review of the second DYS record in Maximum Rock ‘N’ Roll and it was scathing. But what did we expect from a narrow-minded fuckwad who wanted to hear the same three chords over and over again? The biggest thing in punk rock is to be honest in who you are and say ‘Fuck It’. That’s what we did, but we got dismissed because of that.
Would you say DYS and SSD had something to do with the fashion element of straight edge?
One of the things that definitely characterized the Boston Crew is we didn’t feel like we had to dress like Sid Vicious to be who we were. We wore leather jackets because they looked badass and it was fucking cold in the winter in Boston. It wasn’t a fashion thing. I would wear a hoodie with shorts because it fit for skateboarding.
Youth of Today were paying attention to you guys.
I know they were influenced by us.
What did you think of Youth of Today?
Youth of Today had great songs. They were carrying forward a tradition we set. I don’t know if we passed a torch, but we certainly helped light their torch and that’s great. That’s what we wanted. I didn’t want Straight Edge to be something that lasted from 1981 to 1985 and then never existed again because all those problems that created it in the first place would come back. So I’m glad they were bands that picked it up and did it their way.
I always like to say that American Hardcore was the total embracing and destruction of what Punk Rock was. It was there, but we fucked it up because that’s what Americans are great. We made it harder and faster and a better fit for what we were. The Buzzcocks and Generation X were great because they were true to what they were. We took that Punk Rock ethos, made it our own, and said “Well, this is who we are” and that’s how Punk became Hardcore. By that same philosophy, I think people took Straight Edge and did what they wanted to do with it. Be that Vegan or Krishna. I respected what they were doing.
What do you think you got out of Straight Edge?
I wouldn’t be who I am at this very minute without Straight Edge. It was not a temporary thing for me. If that’s what it was for some kids, that’s great too. If it helped them to not do things when they were at their most susceptible to falling into some bad things and dropped it, that’s fine. People change and grow. It was the realization that I want to make a dent in this world and I don’t want anything artificial to slow that down. I’ll never become a drug addict because it’s not my thing. I don’t want to do that.
What do you think are some of the worst elements of straight edge?
The big thing is nobody is better or worse than anyone else. That’s a huge part of it. The thing I don’t like is seeing drinkers make fun of Straight Edge or Straight Edgers who make fun of drinkers. Live your own life. When you become Mother Theresa, then maybe you can start to say you’re better. But even those people know they’re not any better than anyone else either.